context is key to understanding, though, dont you agree? The last time their PCP prescribed a pain killer without knowing the patients drinking habits what problems with the med did you notice? Based on everything Im reading about this guy in this thread and the OP by various people, (that he joined an adultery site, hes been a bully for years, is authoritarian, he has his church ostracize ex members, etc) are you saying that this bad fruit should be ignored, all because the guy is also an alcoholic? Alcoholics are liars- the best liars. Nothing in life is full-proof. Wine for all (no grape juicewhat are you, some kind of wimp?) at communion. By the way, I am agnostic on the topic of if an alcoholic should be kicked out of church or not. I think that would apply even to alcoholics or people with other sorts of problems. Yes, job loss should happen for Sproul 2, but with the church directing him and supporting him into treatment. (So sorry for your terrible experience Dee). I hope his (second) wife and children get help to take care of themselves around his alcoholism and learn how to set boundaries with him. What he did was wrong and could have been much worse than it turned out to be. They have their own logic, and its different from yours. ". Plus I dont like the way it makes me feel. I doubt I will. Other people were subjected to the same treatment. @ Nancy2 (aka Kevlar): For several weeks my wife continued going with my daughter while I stayed at home and grieved my loss. If he Sproul gets clean and sober he will probably ditch many ideas that he used to justify including patriarchy. 1 Corinthians 5:11-13. I can see why you loved him, faults and all. but only if the person is dead serious about sobriety. 2. We all toasted to the bride and groom with a glass of champagne. Velour was being hostile to a few people up thread such as Barbara and Julie Anne, and later, to me. I always encourage people who need help to see professionals. Nobody blames him, but nobody fails to monitor his behavior either. http://thewartburgwatch.com/2017/06/21/rc-sproul-jr-is-now-a-convicted-felon-alcoholic-and-is-one-step-away-from-a-tragedy/comment-page-1/#comment-329719. but continue in the faith. First of all, it can be pretty hard to define just what gossip is. Unlike his son though he didnt brag about it, at least in his sermons, like RC Jr does Were Presbyterians so we smoke and drink. But neither was RC Sr at all ashamed of being a drug addict (alcohol and cigarettes are drugs and can be very addictive). But as others have said, if he doesnt go into treatment voluntarily and want to get help, it will do no good. ALL FAKE NEWS. Not everyone can financially afford to see a MHP, either. We came out of one of those churches. It had such a devastating impact on my husband that he doesn't drink alcohol. He took me home. I even opened up to church people about some of the problems I had but was met with platitudes and put downs, not support. Same in books on domestic violence those who are experts on DV will tell readers dont waste time bringing your abusive husband into marriage counseling, because marriage counseling is ineffective at treating abuse. Doesnt calling us to repent mean that you are, by your own reasoning, admitting to your own misperception of Gods holiness? The addict builds up a tolerance over time. all my kids of alcoholics now use my term stupid juice for alcohol because your intelligent parent becomes an intellectual & moral moron when drinking & think they can lie with impunity. With the prevalence of addictions, including in women (and that includes older women), the solution in my opinion isnt to kick them out of the church but to come alongside them and get them (and their families) help. I really doubt most alcoholics CAN go to inpatient treatment for 30 let alone 90 days. She was born April 17, 1947 at Baltimore, MD a daughter of the late Phillip Geppi and Rita Geppi who survives at Belington. Nobody kicked her out. I get that we all sinbut this is different. And we explain why we think that word is an inappropriate and unhelpful when talking about domestic abuse. Velour, Im very sorry I hurt you. I wore a wig to school for about 6 months until my hair grew out enough that I wasnt ashamed of how I looked. Go back and re-read what I said. Yes, Christiane, thats precisely how it works. I have updated the post with photos of the injuries I sustained almost 45 years ago because someone chose to drink and drive. Association of Related Churches . Thanks ever so much. Max often reminds us that most Baptist churchgoers dont pay much attention to theology. If alcoholism is a disease, its the only one you can buy in a bottle. Its so embarrassing on top of everything else. it did sound harsh, didnt it, sometimes getting angry is the first step out of depression . I dont know what Barbara meant specifically, but I find it hard to think well of him at all, considering what Ive read. I just happen to see the religious and public aspects of this differently from how you see it. Director Co-founder at Ligonier Ministries Vesta Sproul is the Board Member at Ligonier Ministries based in Sanford, Florida. Single Women in the Church: Valued orNot? In fact in his case it goes much further than it went with you. It is great in this day and age with blogs etc. Hed lost his wife and daughter only works if we ignore chronologies. Just because that information wasnt provided, however, doesnt mean that hes not seeing a licensed professional. To an Alky, the Constitutional Right to My Next Drink cannot be violated in any way.. Just last week our District Attorney got brought up on 13 felony counts. Per the sworn affidavit of the arresting Allen County Police Officer Paul Heffner he observed RC Sproul Jr driving left of the center line, failing to maintain his lane, driving off the roadway, striking a curb, and weaving. But should RC Jr be permitted to stay in a pastoral role? (LogOut/ The Bible says that Christ Jesus went about healing all who were oppressed of the devil. A probation department typically makes a written recommendation to the judge about the course of treatment, that includes professional treatment. Im just saying that it was handled with some thought and care at that church, and not at all taken lightly. An alcoholic likewise has little or no control over his drinking by definition. You said, When asked we can offer suggestions where they might find help.. Is is with a licensed professional whos trained and qualified in alcoholism? More than anything thats what his parents should have been concerned about all these years. I think. Many of us have suffered tragedies. They also have to be willing to cut themselves off from all their friends (the only friends alkies keep are drinkers and other alkies) and make new sober friends. Anyway. We are the body of Christ. Velour wrote: A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot produce good fruit. RC Sr should have called his son to repentance and to make restitution to all the families hed abused. I assume you already know, Christs church isnt a building or a place to park our butts on a pew. I sure hope that church members or family members uncover the rest of the sins that have been covered up at St. Peter. That he should get treatment; and Velours suggestion is a good one and I hope youll take it to heart. Please stop? Hell become a sober endorser of patriarchy. Thanks for giving us that information. (And the same goes for HUG where he contemptuously described me as righteous.) Granted, some of the help I found in my research was written by other M.H.P.s, but I had to find their material on my own and figure out if, when, and how to apply it to myself. Till I found TWW & SSB. and fails to get the help he needs . She may have been confused and thought I wrote that I myself have been banned from your blog, which I never wrote or said. Either way you need to stop putting words in other peoples mouths. Remember too, that in a church that is functioning well, there are plenty of people that have sin issues that are sincerely repentant and asking for help, and we should be giving them loving care and it may involve counseling and financial resources. The scars are still there but not that noticeable. I think it is best to take this argument back a bit. I wasnt raised with the concept that your church keeps tabs on what youre up to. I saw it as narrowly focused on RC Sproul, Jr. More and more articles have been released in the last 15 years containing information from studies saying that anti-depressant medications do not work for most people. Got a few of my own. (And we are all frustrated with the double standards we have seen!!). They have absolutely NO idea how phony it sounds to someone outside the Amen Chorus. The Orlando Sentinel published a fitting obituary on December 15, here included in part: [2]. It doesnt mean it will work. I tried so hard to offer some comfort. So in that respect, one has a choice component. No one can make him do that. When those boundaries get repeatedly violated then a marital separation might be called for, although it doesnt always need to even be a legal separation filed in the courts. The solution to spiritual abuse isnt to cast aside what the Bible commands the church to do, its to obey the Bible. It is perfectly fine for you to believe that. Both men have left a trail of shattered relationships. Secondarily, what were the terms of his probation? Even if you arent an addict, you can start to build a tolerance if you drink consistently. View pages/Spiritual-Sounding-Board/266400143480456?ref=hls profile on Facebook, View @defendthesheeps profile on Twitter, View soundingboards profile on Pinterest, BGBC Lawsuit Archive (Julie Annes lawsuit), 00 Guide to Navigating the BGBC Defamation Lawsuit Archive, 01 Court Dates and Documents, and Analysis of Allegations, 02A Narrative Account and Analysis: The Lawsuit, 02B Narrative Account and Analysis: Sidebar Issues, 03 BGBC Defamation Lawsuit Events Timeline, 04 BGBC Defamation Lawsuit Media/Blog Response Timeline, 05 Analysis/Commentary Pieces Legal, Historical, Media, Other, 06 Impact of the Case and Significance for the Future, Quotes from Readers I Dont Want to Forget, Glossary of Manipulative Rhetorical Gambits and Code Words, R.C. I think the blood stains on that white coat might help explain that anger pretty well. When and if the program successfully completed, I would have fewer reservations with a pastor returning to the pulpit, as long as other behaviors are not present. I wonder if they are applying this to all, or only to people who fill certain roles? Had he qualified and successfully completed all the requirements of the Drug Court Treatment Program he could have avoided a criminal trial altogether. Father S, the RCC priest when we did RCIA, said that in the early church when somebody sinned they had to go around individually and confess and reconcile each with everybody, and that this caused problems in and of itself. I respectfully disagree. If you think that is hateful, your gripe is with the Bible not with me. The state does not usually come up with the funds for treatment. Not all former drinkers transform into likeable people. I think the way these churches do it IS called accountability groups where people are urged to confess everything to the group and Im not sure what happens next . or a reviler, [verbal attack, slander, violent language]. It takes a tremendous faith in Gid, as well as support from non judgement all Christians to let go and let your child experience the consequences. He was also arrested and charged with endangering the lives of his two minor children who were with him in the car. and me and Barbara advocated that alcoholics should be kicked out of the church. Should the entire church have been warned to stay away from Daisy, to have nothing to do with her, and that shes probably destined for Hell (because she just hasnt gotten over it and shaped up?)? I have studied and truly believe and understand the disease/treatment model for addictions. Having said that, I suggest you read the verses I gave (1 Cor 5:11-13). Yes he shouldnt have been driving drunk with his kids in the car, but he was really depressed. They didnt go for his excuse, not just because there is no excuse for drunk driving but because they probably already knew there was no cause-and-effect correlation. Of course he needs treatment, but there are far more people harmed by his chronic abuse behavior from his position behind the pulpit as pastor. No sir (or maam), I did not create a false correlation. H.A. (P.S. Thats just not cool. For me these people are PURE EVIL!! I am not surprised that an active alcoholic is pushing drinks on everyone around him, as it makes him seem normal and justifies his drinking. I have no problem with alcohol use by people who arent alcoholics and are responsible about it. True. I then got entirely away from that direction and went into radiology. Oh, excellent, Nancy2. It was apparently his routine to engage in this life-threatening behavior during every commute to and out of Mendota. Dear friends, Now that my rant is over, I feel that if a business can tell tell an employee Joe you have a problem thats affecting your work, get help then a church should be able in love to request/require an individual to get treatment. I offered H.A. It would be unethical for me to do so. So I was only saying what the Bible says. You can gain a lot of useful info from going through the pertinent comments in the thread I linked to (waste of your time reading the ones from Mr. Smith though). discoveries. Or do you not know? She was married to Howard Sproul who . The difference, of course, is that the dementia patient cant help it. Someone commented and said that this was the only time that R.C. Great minds think alike! Not any system that overlooks his cries for that help. But getting someone into treatment is the first step of many to helping them. There was no need for pushback, just as there was no need for you to wrongly assume that we are against treatment (which Barbara clarified above). Driving drunk with two minors nettedhim two felony charges. I never found any of that helpful in coping with depression, anxiety, or grief after my mother died. Thank you. very things, along with allowing a number of guys to use her as they chose, which often put her childrens lives in jeopardy. We don't know the extent to which RC2 family have tried to get help for him, but RC1 is a faithful brother of all of us in Christ. He has been through enough pain without your unfounded accusations and threats even that if his son hurts someone it will be on his head . Two of them were guys showing out while drunk, but the others were victims of drunk drivers. May we all be "wounded healers" who do no harm. The victim of somebody elses alcohol is just as much a victim (dead on the road is what I saw over the years) whether the drunk person was self medicating or whatever the reason. An honest pastor will say, Im sorry, but Im not qualified to give you advice about that, but that would be a rare pastor. link. Of course people have to want sobriety for it to work. Call me an old fuddy-duddy, but I will upset folks if I keep talking catch you on the next TWW piece. To me, its the better road than the kick them out approach. Velour said: But her children have been wounded and scarred. I do however agree with everything else youve said. I had already read your first comment about Barbara and codependency. I appreciate the work that you and Jeff Crippen do at A Cry for Justice. You deal really well with troubled waters. Hope makes not ashamed. How much can I eat and not gain weight? I would agree that Sproul shouldnt be disqualified due to his ADULT sons issues. I believen you may not know that history with JR. posted earlier to the other website dealing with Sproul Jr. Most alcoholics go to in-patient treatment programs for 30 days to 90 days. Through thick and thin just be there, as you spoke of. When someone and his behavior is a threat to self and others then that person and his behavior have to be dealt with, as a danger, and strong steps must be taken. Dr. R.C. it is not the same as a disease which is not brought on by the choice of behavior. I would ask that you not use it again though. I learned at an early age that it can be DEADLY!!! He is damaging indeed, and the fruits are showing. More than that, how do you know what their drinking habits are? The idea that hurting people hurt people is correct but it is not comprehensive. Right. I stand corrected. Julie Anne showed a lack of knowledge about the topic of substance abuse. 1 Corinthians 5:11-13. Hopefully an intervention can be done on Sproul 2 and his minor children can be removed from his care since he is a danger to them. The idea of publicly humiliating people who have serious problems that require medical intervention does not sit well with me. Browse by category . Velour wrote: Good point, Jeff. from her when she kept on and on telling us that we were wrong to take the view we took about codependency. Its good that you told your parents about it, and its good they protected you from further harm. It caused him to victim-blame everyone any time they shared some struggle they were going through with him, even though they were not at fault. I thought she was referring to a professed believer who would not repent, but I may have been reading between her lines. After the alky refuses to cooperate, which most drunkards do (sorry for substituting the Dark Ages biblical term), what then? Could this be Justification by If Everybodys Doing It? I do know that most Christian people do believe that Christ died for them out of love for them, not to satisfy a wrathful entity who despises them. The best place for him to go for his probation is an in-patient treatment facility for alcoholism (and whatever else his problems are that his intake uncovers). We dont know. . That has nothing to do with your situation, which we do not know about, nor anything to do with what you have said since you have not said any of those things. Maybe feeling comfortable is too much to expect when something is not ready to be shared. As it turned out, my depression was more a symptom or a side effect, not the cause of my issues but no doctor I ever saw caught it. Unbelievable! I can totally understand RCSproul wanting to protect his son, What I dont understand is his lack of faith in Gid dealing with his son. @ Deborah Coan: So you fully agree with what Sproul wrote in that article? Plainly put so-called support programs are overrated. When you are in a bubble and surrounded by a bunch of other people buying into the same false information and teachers it can be hard to realize just how deceived the group and you are. Pennsylvania. And regardless of your answer, if people in his sphere (church) are aware, but ignoring the issues, then they have something to answer for as well. I was stopped, he was doing 55 in a 35. Bridget wrote: That is Gods department. Two days into it, I called my doctor and begged him to take me off the blood thinners so I could take non-steroidal anti-inflammatories (Think ibuprofen). I think that the Father weeps over some of His children, if indeed they are His. I know the story, but need someone willing to come forward, even anonymously. But the church should also do their level-best to get him into treatment since hes a full-blown alcoholic with all of the classic symptoms. Obituary. So these people are not mean or manipulative as far as you know, but the last time you saw one their wives try to tell them they had too much on board, what was their reactionsweetness and lightthank you dear for reminding me? The alcoholic never thinks about anyone other then themselves. I was right I needed to read that passage in I Corinthians 5 again. Julie Anne and I have each explained our thoughts on the topic of this alcoholic pastor multiple times. What will the families of alcoholics and drug abusers do? Serous help? It doesnt always work when you are in the Boys Club or RC1s son. If nothing else get a dose of reality. . The repairs needed to be done from his unit, and he had a simple and logical solution other than letting the plumber into his unit for repairs: If You Just Stop Using Your Shower, We Wont Have a Problem! Made all the sense in the world to him. Sproul Jrs spiritually abusive treatment of church members and whole families. He has made some very poor choices, many of which have directly harmed his family. I, too, am very disappointed with the black hole into which this thread has disappeared. Would you PLEASE STOP! I feel as though I was being unjustly attacked by her. 1939 R. C. Sproul was born on February 13, 1939 in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USA as Robert Charles Sproul. I wasnt just a doormat with the word Welcome written on me, I was wall-to-wall carpeting!. Good point, Jeff. But they also need bona fide help from people who know how to deliver it and are trained in it. From this description, Anne was not in leadership at her church, and she was not actively hurting others in the church, or pushing alcoholic beverages on others in that church to somehow justify her own drinking. My friends parents were killed on impact, and my friend was severely injured. Muff Potter wrote: Clearly. Jr's church in Virginia, Saint Peter Presbyterian Church. In time they were each restored, one after repentance and one after a time in prison. "I try, like most of us, not to be easily offended. That must have been very tough and I dont know why that didnt work. So Velour, you have now ordered JulieAnne around by telling her what she needs to do. claimed that Al-Anon and sponsors tell people to separate from alcoholic spouses. Hopefully one day our judicial system will get that. Just search his name and spiritual abuse, etc. SEE? They are false teachers without a flock, but with a following. Drunk/ drug driving maims and kills. "You're not drunk if you can lean on the pulpit without holding on." Velour, is there anything in our conversation that has triggered an old experience for you? Change), You are commenting using your Twitter account. He is now a wonderful father and husband. He was a writer, known for Calvinist (2017), The Parables of Jesus (2012) and The Gospel: 2016 National Conference (2016). (And the same goes for HUG where he contemptuously described me as righteous.). Thats the Lord Himself teaching, so I dont take that lightly. R.C. Biblical church discipline is not Dark Ages nor cruel. The Sprouls lived in an extremely rural town called Mendota. That is not repentance, no. I speak from some experience on this. is playing right into his hands and giving him exactly what he wants. I feel everyone involved( church, family, job should ethically help a person reach bottom. People need to wake up. I say I because it was just I. To the contrary, this blog is littered with stories of the failings of 9 Marks, Acts 29, and a plethora of other churches who have inflicted great harm on people before hundreds if not thousands of people. Please stop advocating for other family members of substance abusers and how the church treats them? No, I saw your list. Its so embarrassing on top of everything else. At least, from the description. So very Dark Ages. Apparently he was genetically hardwired for alcoholism; from his first taste of alcohol, he immediately wanted more and more and more. I think you are misunderstanding me. One time, his daughter invited me to the Sproul house for a sleepover. Should alcoholics and drug addicts be enabled? Velour wrote: This truck had lap belts, which Im pretty sure we werent using. Mine was a quiet conversion-I thought a lot about what I was hearing and reading, and through Gods kindness to me and the prompting of the Spirit, came to faith. we went to seminars and learned a lot about drug and alcohol abuse. Back in 1973 I received Christ as my Savior after several different people shared Christ with me, as well as my own reading of the Bible. I was thanked earlier today by one of the TWW lurkers who struggles with alcohol and was terribly upset by what was said about people with this condition. Jack wrote: It didnt help me with depression or anxiety (thats the truth), and I did try attending a few different churches at low points in my life. So a married guy being an alcoholic is a justification for using a cheating site? Ive read a lot of pushback to AAs all or nothing approach recently. Barbara said that H.U.G. I even pointed out that books BY people who are MHPs themselves mention cautions to their readers to be careful when doctor shopping because, they say, some MHPs are inept or charlatans. which is not that far off base: he needs to be born again as this persistent pattern of behaviour shows he is NOT regenerate and is NOT in Christ at all. I guess I was looking at it from the viewpoint of Sprouls victims. I think youre seeing something in their posts that is not there, or are misunderstanding their post.
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