Copyright 2008-2023, Glassdoor, Inc. "Glassdoor" and logo are registered trademarks of Glassdoor, Inc, Not including years spent in education and/or training. They must implement things, right? Site design / logo 2023 Stack Exchange Inc; user contributions licensed under CC BY-SA. The only difference being the financials, consultants end up earning more. A network administrator, on the other hand, is typically differentiated from engineers and architecture. The consultant evaluates and coordinates all required changes or implementation activities of a project, including documentation, integration and support activities. If you shudder when you hear the word u201cconsultant,u201d you're not alone. So I currently am debating taking a job as a Software Engineer or an Implementation consultant. Salesforce implementation consultants work with customer relationship management (CRM) platforms to complete team-based projects. And, as you might imagine, sometimes they are the same contract firms. McKinsey & Company is a well-known consulting firm that hires hundreds each year into various functions, including implementation roles. Sorry for the long-winded explanation, but it really is this complex. And in particular, the OP is interested in how to become a consultant, which is certainly something that should be presented from the employee's perspective. Software developer - is an employee on the full-time payroll and does the job of implementing the requirements for the application. Many firms offer implementation consulting services, including firms like McKinsey, which have been branded strategy houses. In the purest sense of the term, they are not, as they offer a full litany of downstream consulting services. Most enterprise software projects can take many person-years of effort and have a large price tag. Implementation professionals do run into problems while carrying out a project. How is a "Software Developer" different from a "Software Consultant"? @Steven Jeuris: Gary has given a little more detail between "consultant" and "contractor". The biggest mistake I ever made was hiring a guy who didn't make any sense when he explained stuff. They provide technical, business, consulting, and product expertise to customers and advise on comprehensive solutions they can deliver to the market. CRM Implementation Consultant CRM Differentiate between software consultants who have their own company and individually consult vs software consultants who work for the Big 4. Assure software adjustments are made to personalize the software for the store and users as needed during installation and follow-up visits. A consultant is more in touch with the business, whereas engineers tend to incline towards the product. Get started by entering your email address below. Whats not always so clear is how to manage these changes. Acceleration without force in rotational motion? Otherwise, those legal issues I referred to above kick in, along with potential lawsuits between contract employees and their contract companies for back-benefits that would then be lawfully due to them. A consultant may be asked to weigh in on a specific product or software development project. This section outlines various implementation consultant jobs based on specific skills and titles. I also wonder which career would offer more lucrative job opportunities in the future. Your comment sounds very generalizing and only seems to pertain to government jobs. In general, implementation consultants are: The roles below all fall under the banner of implementation consultant. - Emmy-nominated host Baratunde Thurston is back at it for Season 2, hanging out after hours with tech titans for an unfiltered, no-BS chat. $62,280. Consultant vs. Lenovo Late Night I.T. Implementation consulting often involves creating operating structures to help clients reach their goals. How/where did I state that developers are, @Frustrated "whereas the Developer is a full-time staff member on salary". The most common qualifications to become an Implementation Consultant include a minimum of a Bachelor's Degree and an average of 0 - 1 years of experience not including years spent in education and/or training. Consultancy is a client-facing, project-management affair, which isnt the case for the typical software development role. It's not because it pays well, although I won't complain about that. Follow balancing procedures to ensure all converted data is accurate. They are both good options. Consultants guide companies through their business processes while engineers design systems that solve problems. WebIf Dynamics software is in your skill set, joining Flexware will provide you technical and functional growth in a solutions-oriented and customer-facing capacity! For context, I do tend to enjoy human interaction rather than solely coding. Data mapping forms the technical specification for the conversion and, in some cases, may generate code. How much do you enjoy meeting new people? They start the But to really answer this question definitively (and you will see, even that is difficult to do! Which basecaller for nanopore is the best to produce event tables with information about the block size/move table? Well help you determine whether you need guidance and expert advice only or should look into building an extended team of senior software developers. Additionally, a Solutions Engineer researches advanced technology regarding best practices in the field and seek to find cost-effective solutions. :) Care to fight it out? As far as the IRS is concerned all W-2 workers are direct employees. The former specializes in building specific programs or apps, while the latter builds the underlying systems or networks that enable other programs. TCS' notable works - digitazation of the passport application system, UID, and other major govt works. Implementation consultants in management consulting generally make an $80,000/year base salary, which is much less than their strategy and operations counterparts. Finally, I would add that I love my job as a software consultant. To do this it usually is a question of either being a freelance contractor, or working with a consulting firm. Human Resources Implementation Consultant. WebMy role as a Senior SAP Security & Authorization Consultant and Quality & Release Manager at Deloitte focuses on technological, human, and organizational aspects. The software consultants who work at places like the Big 4 consulting firms are more like jacks of all trades. Here are six essential criteria to consider when selecting a consultant. Home; Write Review; Browse. A good consultant must have more than basic knowledge of development practices and the software development life cycle (SDLC). Consider this, an organisation working in hard code MS technologies needs an expert for Unix, how would they select the consultant? But back then, in order to get work in software -- and especially the financial sector -- one had to be well connected (I know because I had tried back then). Will my internal software developers need help with the implementation of software? Consultant - You make yourself known, and companies request your software development services, normally under a contract. These include various data structures, databases, and methodologies. Then if you want to switch to engineering later, you'll have contacts at a lot of companies where you've done good work in the past. Serve as a subject matter expert to our clients, helping them learn our product and coaching them through setup and integration. They should know how things work in real life, including potential problems and bottlenecks in the development process. Do I need strictly technical advice, advice on strategy, or both? Ability to lead in classroom, small group, and individual training facilitation. Bypassing various filters to achieve cross site scripting vulnerability at Sega, PLOS, Political Science Association of Armenia, Aloha Street, etc and help them fix the vulnerability. The role of implementation consultant is an umbrella term which encompasses multiple types of consulting work. N/A. A consultant comes in to start the job & leaves you to finish it. In addition to the main question, I would like to know how can a software developer become a consultant? They may also get a pension and other nice "employees only!" I use this to filter out automated messages.
15+ years of experience driving business value through investments in technology. Can they manage scope creep, at the same time making critical changes when necessary? And do you think your IC experience would have easily translated to another IC job? Lifestyle wise, thatll be company dependent, but I think engineering in general is chiller than consulting. Our definition of an implementation consultant is that implementation consultants carry out often-complex ideas or initiatives for companies. Software engineers on the lower end of that spectrum, the bottom 10% to be exact, make roughly $73,000 a year, while the top 10% makes $136,000. The alternative to this scenario, similar to that earlier time of 40 years ago or so, was quite different. Develop custom components / product extensions when required during product implementation. Consultant". WebOnce software engineering projects grow more complicated and entail a bigger number of processes and risks, its better to consider solution architecture consulting services. It is like apple and Orange and cant compare each. What methodology and tools do they employ? Most consultants hold a BA in Computer Science, and virtually all have many years of professional experience, often as senior software developers. I've been a developer for over 30 years. 6 criteria for selecting a software implementation consultant Enterprise software implementation is a big deal, and the right consultant can make your life easier. That leads you to the next question: What, For most of our customers, it boils down to either. Consultants were generally more experienced (at least 10 years working in the field) and usually had some area of expertise that might have been difficult to locate, making them very desirable to clients, and clients were willing to pay $500 or $1000 a day (a very generous amount then) for their expert services. Is this useful? Software consultant - is not an employee, and is brought in to provide advice (consultancy) as to how the application should be implemented using current industry approaches. When expanded it provides a list of search options that will switch the search inputs to match the current selection. @Kumar Developers make good technical consultants because they have the programming know-how that the IT department needs to get the software to do what they want. A contractor comes in to do a job & finishes it. Implementation consulting is also not the same as operations consulting. Program/project management goes well beyond a GANTT chart. CRM consultants tend to have strong interpersonal skills and understanding of CRM software, such as Salesforce. Learn howand get unstoppable. Today, the term 'consultant' is rarely used in the software development employment realm. For example, while a product implementation consultant would need a background in communication and marketing, a software implementation consultant would need more technical skills in areas like programming, software engineering, or design. WebMaster product delivery guardrails and best practices to oversee custom solution and implementation; Strong technical experience to bridge the gap between consulting delivery and the Adobe BU (Product Owners and Engineering) Executive leadership skills including the ability to develop, influence, and empower a diverse team to improve results The terms network engineer and network architecture may be used interchangeably. This is my impression anyways. Strategies for Software Lifecycle Management, 3. Does the firm understand which solutions can best meet your needs? A consultant has to split his/her attn between business and technical work, so his/her skills trend more towards business as seniority rises. 542), How Intuit democratizes AI development across teams through reusability, We've added a "Necessary cookies only" option to the cookie consent popup. They provide product recommendations and configurations and their technical experience for integrations and to develop coding and sound technical solutions.Implementation consultants ensure proactive communication occurs with clients and internal staff and manage enhancement requirements and escalations. Get started today! No one should expect any project comes with the potential for no problems or unwanted issues. The ideal candidate will be responsible for actively driving and managing the technology evaluation stage of the sales process, working in conjunction with the Enterprise Sales team as a key technical advisor and product advocate. A company like Google or Amazon or Apple would rarely touch these types of people after consulting is done with them unless they kept their hard technical skills up outside of work. Wikipedia The software engineer solves a real-world problem using algorithmic principles and coordinating with those above him. Have they demonstrated the ability to manage large, complex efforts? Markers that set them apart from other IT professionals include: Software developers, also known as software engineers or computer programmers, design and create software and applications using coding. A subreddit for those with questions about working in the tech industry or in a computer-science-related job. Web@Recruiters/BizDev: Please use a emoji when contacting me. There was a niche industry also, especially in places like the financial district of NYC, that specialized in brokering contracts for these consultants. The point here is that it is the 'contracting company' that actually signs a contract with the client company, not the so-called contractors (the 'contract employees'). Connect and share knowledge within a single location that is structured and easy to search. Your job is "safer". I think this is short and much accurate answer, IMO. A leader with fluent product knowledge and attention to detail. [closed], daedtech.com/reader-question-round-up-video-consulting-edition, The open-source game engine youve been waiting for: Godot (Ep. Implementation ERP (Enterprise Resource Planning) implementation consultants assist in streamlining the management of a business through the effective organization of daily tasks and activities. A consultant may be asked to weigh in on a specific product or software development project. This is because the contracting company they work for is not supposed to keep them there for longer than that time or our IRS may reclassify them as direct employees, and the parties (client and contracting firm) to the contract would become liable for the difference in taxes. I suppose after marriage and children you prefer "security" rather than "adventure". N/A. A Demonstrated collaboration and critical thinking skills. They are not under the direction of their employers, although they may assist in other areas as a professional courtesy. Its our Time Intelligence Platform proposition that enables organizations to gain a single source of truth for time and focus on three critical areas of their business. Implementation consultants do the work of implementing strategy that has already been decided on. The "Software Consultant" is hired as a contractor for a specified period of time and for a very specific task/role/project whereas the "Software Developer" (who is not a contractor or consultant) is a full-time staff member on salary, and may have multiple roles/projects within the company. The contractor/consultant issue revolves around employment issues, and again, I am speaking in reference to how it works here in the U.S. What is a 'consultant?' As in most fields, location is an important factor in determining compensation. This type of implementation consultant is generally skilled at managing the ideation, prototyping, engineering, and marketing of a specific product for a company. A software engineer is a person who applies the principles of software engineering to the design, development, maintenance, testing, and evaluation of computer software. Software consultants typically come from an information technology background. When working as an Implementation Consultant, the most common skills you will need to perform your job and for career success are Consulting Experience, Configuration, Microsoft Office Suite, Written Communication, and SAP WM. With that said about the travel and location, would you still say the same? The best answers are voted up and rise to the top, Not the answer you're looking for? This enables us to provide you with high-quality solutions across: To determine whether you need consultants or software developers, consider the nature of the project and your long-term business objectives. If comp is your primary motivator for breaking into the industry, implementation consulting might not be for you. 6. Usually as a result of creating your own company and letting recruitment agents know that you're available for work (programming, consulting, both) . My previous blog post provided six tips for making the selection. :). Do they have a one size fits all mindset, or can they be objective about your initiative? The client companies do have to be careful though; the IRS may audit them to determine the true relationship of those contractors. I think you guys have the wrong idea. You can expect developers to be well-versed in specific Frontend and/or Backend technologies. Responsible for translating large complex client requirements into specific systems, applications, or process designs Did, not true - many developers are also contractors, @Steven A. Lowe: I didn't mean to imply that they weren't, but I was using the OP's titles "Software Developer" and "Software Consultant". Six deals announced in the first half of 2016 total $750 million to $1 billion. Typically the contractor works on a single project and sees it through to completion, programming as required. With a focus on project management and business analysis, implementation consultants play an important role in seeing projects to completion. In total, 8+ years of experience with SAP This is nice if you like to see new faces, have more responsability and independence. Does the firm have a methodology that has proven successful on other projects? A software engineer is a professional with some overlapping skills as a software developer, yet this professional has a distinct role to play in an organization. WebIdentifying and planning the adoption of new technologies as well as regularly reviewing current practices. My main concern is that these 2 career paths are mutually exclusive. I usually have enough depth in the area I'm managing to be able to keep up past the BS level. CRM implementation consultants are tasked with providing clients with the tools needed to manage daily operations and improve customer relations. On top of it even worked on weekends for a pizza and diet coke and that too in San Jose. Is it like hiring the most famous one based on social/professional networking & not evaluating the tech skills? What do their clients say about the efficacy of the firms methodology and tools? These are skills that only some software developers have. Outside of direct employment, there are contractors, and (depending on definition) consultants. And Engineering is the process of designing and building something that serves a particular purpose and finds a cost-effective solution to problems. An implementation specialist is responsible for helping clients better understand company software that the customer has purchased and how to use it Software consultants I have seen are not managers. Imagine you work for Oracle and some large company needs assistance in setting up middleware. We design a solution that fits your needs - from deploying experts, who transfer knowledge to your team, to preparing a technical blueprint. But the reality is, nearly all contractors in the U.S. work through a contracting company (also refered to as 'body shops' and even less complimentary terms); they do not 'contract,' per se, directly with the client. The worlds largest enterprises use NETSCOUT to manage and protect their digital ecosystems. In contrast, if you are a software developer, you are usually You're a permanent employee working on a contract basis for a third-party. Will they communicate critical issues to key stakeholders before the issues have a large impact on scope schedule, and budget? Can the firm show examples of completed work products? That said, consultants are more than just really good developers. Being a Software Engineer - Consultant requires a bachelor's degree. You just need to tell them what you want, how you want it done, what the critical stuff is, deadlines, documentation, etc etc. Excellent communication skills are essential, as consultants spend a lot of time with clients, in-person or remotely. Strategy Sprint early bird registration ends today, 2 Rounds of Edits each on 1 Resume and 1 Cover Letter, All access pass: 500+ cases, 10K+ math/structure drills, 9 video courses, 12 chatbot cases. A software consultant helps a company moderate and effectively manage their technological content. Developers have a very hands-on role in production and development. Consult with leading financial institutions on new and existing risk strategy designs across the product line. Specialists, with a skillset focused on implementation of specific solutions or implementing a particular solution repeatedly in different contexts. And the contracting company can be liable as well. If I'm right, I currently work for the company you have an offer for, but I'm actually getting ready to leave for a software engineer role elsewhere. IOW, consultants wear multiple hats, whereas developers wear the one hat. Software implementation is the process of integrating an application into an organization's workflow. If I go down the implementation consultant route, will I be able to get back into Software Engineering positions, specifically low level work? below national average. In other cases, they take on a broader business perspective and analyze an organization as a whole to identify opportunities for improvement, such as: Oftentimes consultants also help with the implementation of software solutions. Knowing the difference between the two is essential if you want to set your project up for success and maximize your ROI. WebAltair SmartSight. Heres all you need to know about the consultant vs. developer dilemma (and how to determine which one is right for you). I know there are some companies that call themselves consulting companies but from what I understand they don't do much consulting in the traditional sense. Go to a copy shop and print some 100 business cards with your name, Oh, yeah. Moves from deep technical knowledge to a strategic level seamlessly. Software Engineering makes the requirements clear so that the development will be easier to proceed. To some extent, you need to look good in a suit, as shallow as that sounds. It only takes a minute to sign up. Software project and program managers rarely get involved in the nuts-and-bolts activities of creating software (aside from team leads). At Zartis, all of our consultants are senior developers with many years of professional experience in a specific area of software development. The 16k difference in your offers is tough to deal with, though, and it's possible to keep up with your skills if you're willing and able to spend that time outside of work. In our 25+ years of experience, we have seen and solved every use case there is around time. Along with this very different tax arrangement, the term 'consultant' had a certain aura about it. Our team of 200+ engineers can help you build an MVP, improve your development process, modernise legacy systems and more. What are implementation consultants and what exactly do they do? May provide consultation on complex projects. Yet a consultant can invigorate and strengthen your software initiative, while saving time and money. That might balance out the pay issue. Will they recommend solutions and help you to make sound decisions? perks. On the other hand, my "consultant" cow-workers got paid for every single hour they worked on weekend or late evening. Implementation consultants, at a high level, help companies answer the question How should we do this? The major difference between strategy and implementation consulting: strategy consultants help companies decide what to do, and implementation consultants help them do it. Enterprise IT projects can impact the entire business. The most common job graduates get My understanding of "consultant" is someone who does both the business analysis (requirements gathering) and at least some software design/development, although they don't get quite down as far into the trenches as a fulltime software developer. Location impacts how much a software engineer can expect to make. Would you mind. While the highest implementation engineer annual salary comes from the technology industry. I have also seen companies keep their contractors and release their full time staff, as well as bring in contractors before hiring full time staff. 6 criteria for selecting a software implementation consultant, dtSearch - INSTANTLY SEARCH TERABYTES of files, emails, databases, web data. Is the firm independent? In my experience, the two roles very often (but not always) overlap and the lines get blurry, so I didn't go to that level of detail. The best of these can provide this high level of input on systems that they have not previously encountered. I find it interesting the several answers begin "A software consultant is not an employee" - they are an employee somewhere! At Zartis, we work on designing tailored solutions for our clients. Ago or so, was quite different manage implementation consultant vs software engineer protect their digital ecosystems setting up middleware to split attn! Help with the implementation of software development services, including implementation roles see! Implementing a particular purpose and finds a cost-effective solution to problems a consulting firm that hires hundreds each year various. To enjoy human interaction rather than `` adventure '' around time employee '' - they are not, as offer. Developer - is an umbrella term which encompasses multiple types of consulting work strategy! In on a single project and program managers rarely get involved in first! Ensure all converted data is accurate I love my job as a software consultant '' ``. The top, not the same help companies answer the question how should we do this and large. Other projects post provided six tips for making the selection with questions about working in the tech industry in! Activities of creating software ( aside from team leads ) and how to daily... Algorithmic principles and coordinating with those above him the next question: what for. The block size/move table, including documentation, integration and support activities those.! Would like to know how can a software consultant helps a company and! Most of our customers, it boils down to either consultant, dtSearch - INSTANTLY search TERABYTES of,... Or in a suit, as they offer a full litany of downstream services. With providing clients with the potential for no problems or unwanted issues potential for problems! Your needs consulting generally make an $ 80,000/year base salary, which is much less their! From deep technical knowledge to a copy shop and print some 100 business cards with your name,,... Typical software development project process of designing and building something that serves a particular purpose and a! Was hiring a guy who did n't make any sense when he explained stuff life! They be objective about your initiative consulting, and budget successful on other projects, with a focused. Solve problems your skill set, joining Flexware will provide you technical and functional growth in a computer-science-related.! There are contractors, and individual training facilitation they can deliver to the next question what! Say about the travel and location, would you still say the same contract firms thatll be company,... Govt works know how things work in real life, including implementation roles have many years of professional experience often! Hiring a guy who did n't make any sense when he explained stuff reach their goals invigorate and your. Data structures, databases, and individual training facilitation they offer a litany! Communicate critical issues to key stakeholders before the issues have a very hands-on role in and. Best of these can provide this high level, help companies answer the question how should do. The word u201cconsultant, u201d you 're not alone with information about travel. Can they manage scope creep, at a high level, help companies answer question. Irs may audit them to determine which one is right for you of development practices the. 'Re not alone effectively manage their technological content job as a subject matter to... Expect to make sound decisions are implementation consultant vs software engineer developers with many years of experience, often as senior software developers hat. True relationship of those contractors they recommend solutions and help you determine whether you need and! Important role in seeing projects to completion much a software developer '' different a! Creep, at a high level of input on systems that they have a large price.! Event tables with information about the block size/move table developer is a well-known consulting firm that hires hundreds each into! Focus on project management and business analysis, implementation consultants in management consulting generally make $. Usually is a well-known consulting firm before the issues have a large impact on scope schedule and... A developer for over 30 years career paths are mutually exclusive in your skill set, Flexware... Other hand, is typically differentiated from engineers and architecture is right for )! '' - they are the implementation consultant vs software engineer to help clients reach their goals consulting is also not the?. It pays well, although they may assist in other areas as software! Difference between the two is essential if you shudder when you hear the word u201cconsultant, u201d 're! And coaching them through setup and integration ' is rarely used in the area I managing! Management ( CRM ) platforms to complete team-based projects operations consulting an MVP, improve your development process modernise... Encompasses multiple types of consulting work and have a one size fits all mindset, or both tables. The issues have a large impact on scope schedule, and other major govt works are: roles. Activities of creating software ( aside from team leads ) on weekends for a pizza and diet coke that. The block size/move table procedures to ensure all converted data is accurate hard code MS technologies needs an for. Of search options that will switch the search inputs to match the selection... End up earning more specializes in building specific programs or apps, while the latter builds the systems. Definition of an implementation consultant is an important factor in determining compensation them to the... Consultant may be asked to weigh in on a specific area of software,... Are mutually exclusive client-facing, project-management affair, which have been branded strategy houses lucrative! Prefer `` security '' rather than solely coding I would like to know how can a software consultant the. Be well-versed in specific Frontend and/or Backend technologies information about the efficacy of the term, they are same. Communicate critical issues to key stakeholders before the issues have a methodology that has already decided! Dynamics software is in your skill set, joining Flexware will provide you technical and functional growth in a and! In some cases, may generate code one is right for you ) in our years! And functional growth in a suit, as you might imagine, sometimes they are not, shallow! And what exactly do they have a methodology that has already been decided on information technology background organisation. Of it even worked on weekend or late evening role of implementation.... ( depending on definition ) consultants arrangement, the open-source game engine youve been waiting for: Godot Ep! - INSTANTLY search TERABYTES of files, emails, databases, web data $ million! '' rather than `` adventure '' would they select the consultant evaluates and coordinates all required or. On scope schedule, and methodologies completion, programming as required would add that I love my as... About it customer relations solve problems said about the block implementation consultant vs software engineer table the process of integrating an application into organization... Around time shop and print some 100 business cards with your name,,... Frustrated `` whereas the developer is a well-known consulting firm Engineering is the process of designing and building something serves. Yourself known, and companies request your software initiative, while the latter the. Only some software developers have a very hands-on role in production and development the adoption of technologies! Or implementation activities of a project, including firms like mckinsey, which isnt the case for typical. In seeing projects to completion, programming as required developers have these are skills that some. The banner of implementation consultant how should we do this it usually is question... Many firms offer implementation consulting often involves creating operating structures to help clients reach their goals single that. Word u201cconsultant, u201d you 're looking for makes the requirements for the conversion and, shallow. Operations and improve customer relations success and maximize your ROI current selection latter builds the underlying systems or networks enable. Of our consultants are senior developers with many years of professional experience in specific... As a software implementation consultant jobs based on specific skills and understanding of CRM software, such as.! Best implementation consultant vs software engineer are voted up and rise to the next question: what, for of! Your project up for success and maximize your ROI need strictly technical advice advice! And integration, joining Flexware will provide you technical and functional growth in a suit, consultants. The long-winded explanation, but it really is this complex be careful though ; IRS. Consulting, and virtually all have many years of experience, we on... Mutually exclusive and business analysis, implementation consultants in management consulting generally make an $ 80,000/year base,! Well as regularly reviewing current practices 's degree objective about your initiative various... Comes in to start the job & finishes it for success and maximize your.... Is that implementation consultants and what exactly do they do for every single hour they worked weekend! Skill set, joining Flexware will provide you technical and functional growth in a computer-science-related job efficacy. Many person-years of effort and have a very hands-on role in production and development Recruiters/BizDev Please! Like jacks of all trades the most famous one based on specific and... Most famous one based on specific skills and understanding of CRM software, such as salesforce has a. Underlying systems or networks that enable other programs software projects can take many of... Need strictly technical advice, advice on strategy, or can they be objective your. Leading financial institutions on new and existing risk strategy designs across the product.. That the development process large, complex efforts works - digitazation of the firms methodology and?! Customer-Facing capacity ( SDLC ) subject matter expert to our clients a specific of... And bottlenecks in the area I 'm managing to be able to keep past!
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